(no subject)

[mamculuna]

Also, I've been reading The Body Has a Mind of Its Own, which is fascinating. Not yet finished, but several things I've learned--vision and hearing are minor senses--what really occupies the brain are the senses of touch and movement. Vision wouldn't mean much without movement--and without intentionality. We construct the world in our heads as we move and find that what we see meets our expectations of what we'll feel. And so on.

But I would like a book that explains in evolutionary or scientific terms why we see things as beautiful. I don't mean that I want philosophical ideas of aesthetics--I just mean that I'd like to know why/how we ever got to be this way. What possible survival advantage could it have to be able to see the beauty of a sunset, for example?

Comments

[ann1962]

I don't know but this came to me stirring tonight's vegetables. Hunter gatherer peoples pause for the night, coming together. The light certainly would have been the best show in town when the sun set. The colours of the sunset are the same colours of fruits and vegetable, those which might have been gathered. A keen sense of distinguishing colour would have been advantageous, and having that nightly colour show would sharpen the ability of those who were gathering the food, maybe finding advantage in the better nutrition of brightly coloured food. Healthy people, more fitness? Maybe the detail trained the eyes for better hunting?

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

That's reasonable. Also, maybe a distant sense of "red sky at night, sailor's delight"?

I once heard that the only thing that's universally considered to be beautiful is a rainbow--and the survival virtue of that is clear, at least!

[(Anonymous)]

Is there a universal for beautiful? I am trying to learn what makes a good (beautiful) picture. I know that what "judges" think is beautiful, I often see as ordinary and they overlook pictures that I think are beautiful. Some folks see beauty when I see smaltzy sentimentality. Where I see beauty, others see grime and poverty. Does this mean I don't have a heart? Too early and no coffee yet.

[ann1962]

Just poured my first coffee!

There is no universal for beautiful, for absolutely the reasons you have given. I often find beauty where someone else sees ugly too. I am not sure why that is, but I do believe not only are their evolutionary reasons for all things human, but that there can be reasons that we can't explain, that seem jump into the unknowable. Beautiful sunsets a perfect example. I don't understand a lot about evolutionary theory, and like most things there are more questions than answers. There is tentative research now about human face shape and standards of attractiveness around the world, and they are trying to tie that to mate choice and reproduction. I wonder where that will go.

And I think the idea of beauty only tells us about the person professing what they think is beautiful, and less about the object of beauty itself. Thanks!

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

I had one teacher (in a semiotics class a while back) who said that the research he'd seen found that the only thing that all cultures agree on as beautiful is the rainbow.

Other than that, my own observation is that exactly what we see as beautiful is culturally conditioned--but it seems that most cultures I've heard of have something they see as beautiful. And I definitely think that the schmaltzy v. grimy is probably from indiv. experience and culture combined. But there are lots of different thoughts on why and and how we see specific things as beautiful.

[usedtobeljs]

Interesting question -- will jot down reminder to investigate!

Also, hugs and happy end of Saturday. :-)

[royalbananafish.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you are finding it interesting. I have been looking for a copy since I heard the NPR report, and have found it sold out in every store I've tried. When I saw your post, I checked Powell's again, and they do have a copy now. So, off to Powell's with me!

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

I really like it in the context of yoga.

a related question

[anomster.livejournal.com]

Remember Frisby's thread (http://www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/archives/sep04_03.html#34) on the ATPo board back in '04, about who 1st realized the sun is a star? At the end of my long post in that thread, I asked, "Why do you think humans have the ability to feel awe? What possible purpose could it have served in our evolution? What survival value might it have?"

Awe & beauty, not entirely unrelated. I still don't have an answer, on either question. Just speculation. Maybe there isn't have a survival advantage for the individual--many characteristics are selected for on other bases, like sexual selection, which led to the development of the peacock's tail even though it can be a disadvantage for survival, because it gives a reproductive advantage. That doesn't explain the sense of beauty or awe, though. Maybe it's that it gives us that much more of a motivation to live?

Re: a related question

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

I do remember that discussion--and yes, I think the sense of awe and of beauty are related. And you could be right, that they give us a reason to live. Although awe is sometimes connected with the acceptance of death, I'm thinking (at least in religious contexts).

Re: a related question

[anomster.livejournal.com]

"Although awe is sometimes connected with the acceptance of death, I'm thinking (at least in religious contexts)."

I hadn't thought of it that way--can you give an example? What kind of religious contexts?

Re: a related question

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Well, in Tibetan Buddhism, the Book of the Dead describes coming to terms with the reality of the deity forms one sees in the process of dying, and recognizing that they are really the projections of one's own mind. In Christianity, the concept of being with God and the angels in heaven is usually the imagery associated with dying. (but then possibly you could say that one feeling about hell is awe, also...) Don't know other religious really well enough to speak of them and make sense of it.

I've vaguely heard that Judaism doesn't focus much on life after death. Do you know if that's true?

Re: a related question

[anomster.livejournal.com]

"but then possibly you could say that one feeling about hell is awe, also..."

I guess that's the difference between awe-some & aw-ful!

From what I've read & heard, Judaism didn't deal much w/the idea of an afterlife until after the fall of the First Temple (the Temple of Solomon). The idea of a Messiah born of the line of King David originated during the Exile to Babylonia, or at least that's when it spread among the people, who were in intense despair & needed some source of hope. The Messiah is supposed to arrive (for the 1st time, of course!) heralded by the prophet Elijah, to bring an age of peace, the reestablishment of the kingdom of David, the return of all Jews to that kingdom, the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem, & the resurrection of the dead. I'm not sure if that last one is included in all versions; some say all Jews will "have a share in the world to come," others say it's all righteous people.

Earlier writings refer to "shades" (of dead people) wandering in "She'ol" for eternity. She'ol doesn't seem to be a place of either pleasure or torment--pretty much neutral, the shades are just...there, & they don't seem to be the same thing as souls. There's not much description of either them or the place that I know of, but it's not something I've really looked into. On the other hand, there's also the concept that after death you go to either Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden) or Gehinnom (Gehenna), the equivalents of Heaven & Hell. I have the impression this idea is modeled after the Christian afterlife. It's definitely more recent & seems to be more folklore than anything else.

I'd agree that Judaism focuses mostly on life before death rather than after. It addresses practice much more than belief, & its laws are mostly about how to live in this world, not how to get to the next. It never occurred to me to associate awe w/death or its acceptance in a Jewish context--or, I suppose, any context. Including the examples you gave; I guess I don't think of it in terms of visual forms & imagery.

Re: a related question

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that fascinating historical perspective. I didn't know that the idea of the Messiah arose during the Babylonian captivity. The beliefs in Gan Eden and Gehinnom--I'm guessing from what you say that those are more recently developed?

It's interesting to see how religions borrow from other religions (of course a lot of Buddhist belief comes from various Hindu ideas dating from the same time periods that they grew up in Buddhism--and possibly a little going the other way). I think Christian borrowings from Mithraism and Germanic religions are well-known.

Re: a related question

[anomster.livejournal.com]

Well, that's my understanding of when the Messiah story started, but I'm no expert. Maybe I shouldn't have made it sound so definitive--don't take it as (pardon the expression) gospel. But Gan Eden/Gehinnom, I'm pretty sure, is more recent.

I don't know much about Mithraism, & I'm not sure what you mean by "Germanic" religions. I think the whole "Yule" side of it comes from there, & a lot of the traditions, but that's not the same as the religion. I'm more familiar w/the Norse pagan beliefs--is there a lot of overlap?

Re: a related question

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

OOh, wrong usage. In linguistics, which is where I know history from, Nordic is a branch of Germanic (I think--that could be wrong too). At any rate, I was thinking of Odin, etc.--the resurrection connected with the tree, the celebration of the winter solstice--but also the summer to a much lesser degree. In my mind, early Norse and Germanic have a lot of overlap--I think some similar gods.

Mithrasim is what Zarathustra taught and was the religion of the Roman army, thus somewhat prominent at the time Christianity arose. I think some of the resurrection traditions may be echoed there too, but couldn't be more specific right now.